Nancy C. McLaughlin: Have you enjoyed your tenure as the President of the Travis County Bar Association?
Beverly Reeves: It's been a tremendous experience for me. I've had the opportunity to meet with not only lawyers, but to also reach out in the community and try to establish better partnering relationships with legal assistants in Travis County through the Capital Area Paralegal Association and also with legal administrators through the Legal Administrators Association in Austin. We're trying to get our arms around the entire legal community, not just lawyers.
NCM: Did you have any particular goals when you set out this year?
BR: I had two main goals. One goal was that I wanted to re-establish the Travis County Bar's relationship with Volunteer Legal Services of Central Texas. VLS began as a Travis County Bar Association project and then subsequently went off to be its own non-profit organization. That's our legal service provider. Volunteer lawyers are the actual attorneys at VLS who refer cases to you. I wanted to make sure that the relationship between these two was a very strong relationship. One of the most important things that VLS is doing right now is we're working in the Family Law clinic. We try to get some of the bigger law firms in town who don't traditionally practice any Family Law to work with us and have non-Family Law attorneys handle pro bono Family Law matters. The very first kickoff of my year was to bring together 40 managing partners from the biggest firms in Austin with all of the judges from the District Courts and the 3rd Court of Appeals to highlight our Family Law Clinic and try to get more participationÑfinancially and volunteer-wiseÑfrom the law firms. And that was a tremendous success. My second goal this year was to highlight the needs of children in the legal arena. The Travis County Bar this year established a relationship with CASAÑCourt Appointed Special Advocates. And our goal with CASA was to try to find some goals, or some tasks, that lawyers could accomplish with CASA that don't necessarily involve going through 40 hours of training. We recognize that lawyers want to help and want to be a part of programs like CASA, but time is so short. Also, sometimes it's a little overwhelming to take on the responsibility of being an advocate for one child. So, we worked with CASA to come up with some very specific things that lawyers could do from their desks in their offices and we've had good participation in that, as well.
NCM: I understand that lay people can be involved with CASA.
BR: That's exactly right. In fact, many, many of the volunteers at CASA don't have any legal training at all. CASA trains volunteers. If you don't choose to be an advocate for a child, there are things you can do. For example, when a child comes into CASA and into the system, we often just need to locate the next of kin to see if we can find a place for the child to go. If both parents are out of the scene, the child obviously has been taken away from the parents, so we need volunteers to just help us by getting on the phone and try to track down relatives of the child.
NCM: Do they have organizations like CASA throughout the state, or is it just in Austin?
BR: This is actually a national organization. We have our Austin group. Then we have our statewide group for CASA and then different states have CASA organizations, as well.
NCM: So, if legal assistants in other parts of the state were interested, then they could contact either the state-wide organization or check it out through their own local bar associations?
BR: Yes, and I will give you the name of the Executive Director in Austin, her name is Kim Cox and she can be reached at (512) 459-CASA.
NCM: The Capital Area Paralegal Association has been interested for several years in affiliating with the Travis County Bar Association. What are your feelings about that?
BR: I think that it's a wonderful idea and I'm a very strong supporter of it. As a matter of fact, the Travis County Bar Board met last Wednesday evening to discuss a more formal relationship with CAPA. At that meeting we passed a resolution, to at least get the ball rolling while we go back to our section chairs for each of the individual sections of the bar. We wanted to let CAPA know how interested in we are in having a better relationship, a better partnering relationship. So the resolution we passed was one that would invite CAPA's President, or a Board member, or anyone that they choose, to come to any of our meetings. Second, CAPA was very interested in being able to attend CLE seminars at member prices for the Travis County Bar. And we passed that resolution, as well. And, third, we welcome the members to come and serve with us on committees. CAPA has been so involved in the Austin community and the Travis County Bar is as well and we would like to join forces so that we can do more for the community at large.
NCM: What can a local paralegal association offer a local bar association?
BR: Well, to me, it's more what can the local bar association offer to the paralegals. My perspective is that part of our job as lawyers is to make sure that everyone in the legal community recognizes what paralegals are doing. They are an integral part of what we do everyday. My legal assistant runs the show. I do what she says, not vice versa. Part of my goal in working with CAPA this year was to try to bring a little more awareness both with legal administrators and managing partners as to the professional level of activity that paralegals or legal assistants offer to us. I felt that one thing that we can assist CAPA with is just more recognition as to what legal assistants are doing. I thought it was also important to provide as many opportunities as possible for CAPA members to get to attend CLE programs at reduced member rates. And, third, I really believe it's important to have the legal community, as a whole, more entwined. We work together every day at the office and it only makes sense that we work together on our public service projects, as well. My recommendation for other legal assistants around the state is to contact your local bar association President, or if you don't know the bar association President, find a lawyer who is active in the bar association to raise that issue.
NCM: Is there anything that the paralegal associations can offer the bar?
BR: Oh, yes. Number one, offering their professionalism. Their perspective, which is oftentimes different than what lawyers bring. Their objectivity which is often different than that of the lawyers. Their enthusiasm and their organization. Legal assistants think about things slightly differently than lawyers do. It's having that fresh perspective on any number of issues that I think really benefits the bar. Plus, I think it's important that lawyers will benefit by understanding more what legal assistants can do for them. A lot of lawyers don't really understand the education that legal assistants have and what they can do and bring to the table. The more the Bar understands what legal assistants can do, I think the better off the Bar is.
NCM: How do you feel about licensure, registration, regulation, etc.
BR: I don't feel very qualified to comment about that. I think any regulation has its pros and cons and I haven't had very many discussions with legal assistants about their desires in that area; if they would like to see that or not. I do have a very strong desire to make sure that the legal community and the community at large recognize the professional nature of legal assistants.
NCM: There are certain hearings, perhaps, that a legal assistant could attendÑ administrative as well as the civil docketÑwhere it's a matter of simply presenting papers, having a few questions answered and you're out the door. Would you like to see your legal assistant have these sorts of responsibilities.
BR: I think it depends specifically upon what you're talking about. I'm always very cautious when anyone that is not trained as a lawyer would be practicing law. There's a reason you have to go to law school and spend those three years in training and then practice before you can appear in court, for example. I know that in Travis County, when we used to have a formal docket call, I don't believe that lawyers were required to attend. Anyone could come and announce "ready" or "not ready" at those hearings. I know today, for example, that process servers are allowed to go to hearings to obtain a Motion for Substituted Service signed. There are situations like that where it probably makes sense to have a legal assistant be able to provide that service. Probably all members of the Bar would not share my view on that.
NCM: So, if your legal assistant was trained and qualified, passed her examinations and received her credential, at that point in time would you feel that it would be helpful if she could take on more responsibility in those areas?
BR: Again, I think it depends on the situation. If, for example, a legal assistant is going to take an Agreed Order to a Judge, then to me that seems that this is something that a legal assistant is eminently qualified to do and that would not be a problem. I think especially for uncontested matters, that makes a lot of sense.
NCM: For instance, there are certain probate matters such as having the Letters of Administration issued. I know that Judge Herman has certain questions that he asks the person who is applying for the Letters; personal information, etc. An attorney needs to be there with them when they answer those questions. Basically, for the most part, all the attorney is doing is standing there providing moral support to the client. Where it's a very simple matter. Not where you're actually going to be dealing in an adversarial manner with another attorney, it's a matter of you, the judge and your client. Another example would be uncontested divorce hearings, those types of things.
BR: I would feel very comfortable in those situations where both lawyers have signed off in the civil litigation context with having my legal assistant do that.
NCM: When your firm is looking for a paralegal, do they take into consideration whether or not she has certifications whether it be NALA or the Texas Board of Legal Specialization, or do they look at how many CLE hours that the paralegal has accumulated? Do those kind of things make any difference in their hiring practices.
BR: I have to say honestly, I don't know. I've worked with these same legal assistants, Joyce Goodman and Pam Horn, for my eleven years at this law firm. I know, for example, recently in my office a woman was promoted to legal assistant. I know she does not have any certifications because she is just starting out. I believe that our law firm does look at the education of the individual, their work experience. I think certifications must play a role as well. I don't know whether they are required. I guess my thoughts in general are that any time you can go through an additional training program whether it is to become certified as a legal assistant or to become board certified in a practice area that it is another credential that you have that always brings with it a little more credibility for the person who achieved it. That's important. I think and my hope too in working with CAPA this year is that we can bring a little more awareness to law firms about that process. My law firm is very supportive of our legal assistants going through certification. I think it is important for other law firms as well. I consider Vinson & Elkins to be a very enlightened law firm and a very supportive place to work for all employees. I think though that we have some work to do in terms of bringing that awareness elsewhere in the legal community. What I think about the relationship with lawyers and legal assistants and other members of the legal community is that communication is the key. I as Travis County Bar President can disseminate information, I have a good ability to disseminate information to lawyers that CAPA provides to me, for example, or the Legal Assistants Division provides to me. Many bar associations like ours have a monthly newsletter and we can put information about what's going on with regulation in our newsletters. We have a good system of sections of the Travis County Bar who meet every month who I feel would also be interested.
NCM: One of the things that make attorneys hesitant to having legal assistants regulated was the fact that they were afraid that it might make them want to quit a law firm and go out on there own and set up shop. BR: I would think that what legal assistants want to do is to gain more credibility in the profession and to operate at their full potential. And legal assistants have a desire not to cut the throats of lawyers who are practicing law, but instead to be as professional as possible. I know though, for example, just this week a piece of software that I think Quicken makes called "Family Lawyer" was blocked for sale to the public by a federal judge in Texas. I know that lawyers are always concerned that a community at large gets the legal services to which they are entitled. There's always a concern that if people who are not licensed to practice law are giving legal advice that may not be very good. The legal assistants I know and work with don't appear to me to have any desire to do that. There may be some who do, but my thought is that legal assistants want to be treated as professionals and they should be.
NCM: Of course, we all know that the reason that people go out and buy "How to Do Your Own Divorce" and "How to Handle Your Own Personal Injury Claim" or whatever, they are looking for affordable legal services. Do you feel that perhaps by expanding the role of the legal assistants in some fashion might help fill this void?
BR: It's a complicated question. There is a huge gap, just as you described, a huge section of the population that cannot afford to obtain legal services, but they don't qualify as indigent, so they can't get a free lawyer. The wealthy will always be able to afford lawyers, so it's a complicated questions. I'll tell you that I have been working on this issue through bar committees for a decade. So, how do we provide affordable legal services to people who are average Americans, average Texans. I don't know the answer to that. One of the things we try to do is establish walk-in clinics where lawyers and legal assistants are there as well to offer some basic legal advice to people on a pro bono basis when they have simple questions about a consumer issue or a family law issue.
NCM: I have been told and I have read that when certain attorney's fees are presented to the Court that there are some Courts that are not allowing attorneys fees for some items because a paralegal could have done that particular task and then billed less. There are certain attorneys that do not utilize their paralegals the way they should. Do you feel perhaps that if they utilized them to their full capacity, within the confines, without crossing the line into UPL, do you feel that paralegals that could help to provide affordable legal services.
BR: Without a doubt. I guess my answer to that question would be that it is always very individual/specific. That as a general rule, it certainly seems reasonable to me that any lawyer would want to use her paralegal to the fullest of that paralegal's abilities.
NCM: Say you have a new attorney just starting out and he has his first paralegal, what advice would you give him insofar as utilization.
BR: What I actually do tell them first of all is to always remember that our legal assistants know way more than they do. These are folks that are coming out of law school and oftentimes they are young and sometimes they might actually think that they know more than their legal assistant. So my first instruction to them is, always remember that your legal assistant knows more than you do. Second, always treat them with the utmost respect and courtesy. More specifically, treat them like a queen (the women) because it is the legal assistants that help teach the young lawyers.
NCM: What was your worst experience with a legal assistant?
BR: My approach to practicing law might be slightly different from other people's. My approach is that you gather a team around you and nobody is any better than anyone else. Everyone has their role and everyone works together to reach the common goal. My experience with my legal assistants is that we always work together, side by side as a team. They never hesitate to tell me when I'm wrong. So, I'm really having to think hard about having a bad experience with a legal assistant.
NCM: Well, what about the flip side? What is your best experience with a legal assistant?
BR: I have to say the day-to-day working with people. My legal assistants are so good about making sure that I know what I'm supposed to be doing because when you have a busy trial schedule, you just do from one thing to the next often without as much time as you need to have. With legal assistants, our relationships are as such that they don't hesitate to come in and say to me, "You blew it on this. What we really need to do is X, Y, Z and we can still do it, but we need to do it by 5:00," or, "You revised this document that I drafted and you missed the point because what we were really trying to do was this." I welcome that.
NCM: You like them to keep you on track.
BR: Oh, yes and they do. It's the day to day professional and friendly working relationships. My legal assistants are my girl friends, too. We share each others joys and sorrows with our families, with our children, with each other, with all the craziness that goes on in any law firm. It's the support that my legal assistants give to me and I hope they would say that I give back to them, that's the joy of it. That's the beauty of it.
NCM: In other words, if something goes wrong, or not the way you prefer, they take it as bad or worse than you do?
BR: Well, yes, and I would say that the other way my team operates, my philosophy is that if something goes wrong, you never look for someone to blame. That's a waste of time. Try to figure out what went wrong so you can remedy the situation. On our team, we don't try to find scapegoats or blame people. We are disappointed that a mistake was made, that something gets filed improperly or incorrectly, but we move on immediately and try to make sure it doesn't happen again.
NCM: Everyone always wants to know "What's the last book you read?" I want to know the best book you've ever read.
BR: To Kill a Mockingbird.
NCM: Moving onto the State Bar as opposed to the local bar, what if anything do you think that paralegals can do to more actively participate? BR: I feel that the Legal Assistants Division is fantastic and even at the Travis County Bar level, we have discussed why we don't have a Legal Assistants Division. I guess what I think is the most important thing that Legal Assistants can do is be very diligent and tireless in communicating with their bar associations whether it be the State bar or their local bars about issues that are important to legal assistants. If you don't let people know what's happening, there's no way change can be effected.
NCM: Is there any message you would like to pass along either to attorneys or legal assistants.
BR: To attorneys I would say that I hope all attorneys would make the effort, if they have not done it already, to be more educated and more aware about the services that legal assistants can actually perform. To legal assistants I would say, "Keep your chin up and keep working to obtain the recognition you deserve as professionals in the legal community. Don't give up. It will be a struggle to accomplish some of the goals that you want to accomplish and should accomplish. But, change is never easy."
Beverly Reeves graduated from the University of Texas School of Law in 1988. She has been employed by Vinson & Elkins in Austin, Texas for eleven years with her major area of concentration being Civil Commercial Litigation. She is married to Neil Iscoe and they have a three year old son, Adam.